01:32:46 <markd2> hey psychephylax - I gotta go before my eyes glaze over.  I'll be back tomorrow ~11ish
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15:40:09 <Psychephylax> greetings
15:42:31 <davb> hi Psychephylax
15:45:09 <Psychephylax> hi Dave
15:45:20 <Psychephylax> Como estas?
15:46:31 <Psychephylax> Have you seen Lord of the sucky Ring yet?
15:48:44 <markd2> markd2 (~Snak@r-41.143.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
15:50:06 <markd2> markd2 has changed the topic to: for a good time, call http://openacs.org
15:51:56 <Psychephylax> hey Markd
15:52:17 <Psychephylax> sorry I didn't show up last night
15:52:30 <markd2> np
15:52:35 <markd2> I had to duck out anyway (quack)
15:53:16 <Psychephylax> hehe
15:53:46 <davb> Psychephylax: did you see it?
15:53:57 <davb> I have not.
15:54:12 <markd2> LotW?
15:54:17 <davb> I'm about halfway through the book though. Its getting better.
15:54:18 <Psychephylax> My old high school friends and I went to see Lord of the sucky Rings
15:54:30 <markd2> Lard of the Wings
15:54:32 <talli> talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
15:54:36 <davb> I take it you did not like it so much.
15:54:40 <davb> Hi talli.
15:54:42 <talli> hey guys
15:54:42 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax thwaps© talli 
15:54:42 <markd2> looks like a glowing recommendation
15:54:45 <Psychephylax> Hi talli
15:54:50 <davb> I think I have a meeting...
15:54:52 <markd2> * markd2 greets
15:55:11 <markd2> Thus the original
15:55:11 <markd2> image's image prodcer passes the bits of the image throught the image
15:55:11 <markd2> filter, and the result is a filtered image.
15:55:37 <markd2> just figured I'd share that
15:55:40 <davb> thanks.
15:55:43 <talli> if anyone needs a computer to stage a DOS with, i'm running WinXP and can offer it for your services
15:55:50 <davb> reading up on computer graphics?
15:56:01 <markd2> working through a java graphics / awt book
15:56:06 <Psychephylax> lol
15:56:22 <markd2> * markd2 prefers to stage a CP/M
15:56:45 <davb> Vampire: The Masquerade was/is scriptable through Java. 
15:57:01 <davb> Doesn't look like the practice took off though.
15:57:11 <markd2> heh
15:57:17 <markd2> 'scriptable' and 'java'
15:57:25 <davb> its true :)
15:57:32 <markd2> like using 'C' and 'rapid prototyping' in the same sentence
15:57:49 <davb> How about customizable? 
15:58:02 <markd2> yeah
15:59:17 <davb> It didn't actually look too hard. I am not sure if it actually ran a JVM or if it just intepreted the stuff. They "scripts" were just text files, not compiled.
15:59:34 <davb> Kinda like Perl with Java syntax :)
15:59:40 <markd2> oy
15:59:45 <markd2> * markd2 prefers scripting in FORTRAN
15:59:50 <Psychephylax> hehehe
15:59:53 <Psychephylax> suckers
15:59:59 <davb> Psychephylax: what?
16:00:35 <Psychephylax> eh
16:00:41 <Psychephylax> How's the book? Does it actually have an ending?
16:00:57 <davb> I think you have to read all three...
16:02:43 <Psychephylax> heh
16:02:59 <Psychephylax> If you don't mind getting my review of the movie...I can give it to you
16:03:44 <markd2> sure
16:03:48 <davb> Go ahead :)
16:03:56 <Psychephylax> It was too long for what it was
16:04:17 <markd2> the ScreenIt guys called it a 2.5 hour trailer for the second movie
16:04:18 <Psychephylax> And they cut it in a spot that leaves you going "Ummm...where's the ending"
16:04:24 <Psychephylax> Exactly
16:04:30 <Psychephylax> 3 hour trailer
16:04:35 <davb> bbiab...
16:04:42 <Psychephylax> Some parts were cool
16:04:56 <Psychephylax> Like all the fight scenes
16:06:04 <Psychephylax> They could have made it a shorter movie and still had a lot of content
16:35:44 <Psychephylax> anyone alive?
16:35:56 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax kicks markd in the groin and points at Dave
16:38:35 <markd2> * markd2 gets up off the floor
16:38:44 <markd2> * markd2 is in the happy world of java image filters
16:40:28 <Psychephylax> heh
16:40:31 <Psychephylax> So what should I learn
16:40:55 <markd2> one of each
16:41:30 <markd2> for me, I find it better to have some concrete goal, and then go for it
16:41:53 <markd2> like "I want a job doing UI kind of stuff, and i dont' want to Do Windows, so I'll learn all I can about java UI programming"
16:42:21 <markd2> which helps narrow down the curriculum to use
16:42:41 <Psychephylax> Yeah but where's the entry point
16:42:43 <davb> sounds good.
16:42:50 <davb> Psychephylax: make up a project.
16:42:51 <markd2> I find inexact goals "I want to be good at XYZ" hard to get a handle on
16:43:17 <davb> I can't learn a programming lanaguage by just reading a book.
16:43:21 <markd2> once you have a goal, it's pretty easy to find a book, plow through it, and start putting the various logical pieces together
16:43:31 <davb> ditto
16:43:52 <markd2> like right now I'm on page 143 of a graphics / awt book, and am typing in most of the examples
16:43:59 <markd2> and I think I'm "getting it" pretty well
16:44:24 <Psychephylax> yeah but some things require the basics
16:44:30 <Psychephylax> actually most do
16:44:34 <markd2> you're an experienced programmer
16:44:38 <markd2> the basics will come quickly
16:44:43 <Psychephylax> How you figure?
16:44:44 <Psychephylax> lol
16:45:02 <markd2> you know how to do a for loop, you've done some OO stuff before I presume
16:45:05 <markd2> the rest is just syntax :-)
16:45:06 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax notices the use of experienced and "you" (meaning me) in the same sentence
16:45:16 <Psychephylax> What's a for lop
16:45:18 <Psychephylax> loop
16:45:20 <markd2> pfffffth
16:45:26 <Psychephylax> :-/
16:45:34 <Psychephylax> I like while
16:45:37 <markd2> the Exam Cram Java 2 Certification book is a great book
16:45:44 <Psychephylax> while {cookie != 0} {
16:46:11 <Psychephylax> set mark $markscookie+1
16:46:17 <Psychephylax> set cookie $cookie-1
16:46:18 <Psychephylax> }
16:46:28 <markd2> heh
16:48:41 <davb> I have that stuff down. I want to learn the fancy stuff like alogrithms etc...
16:48:59 <Psychephylax> heh
16:49:08 <Psychephylax> They tried to teach us that while we did not have the basics
16:49:33 <davb> stop saying BASIC, its scaring me. :) Say fundamentals.
16:49:39 <markd2> heh
16:50:24 <davb> Psychephylax: start with assembler, then move up to C. Very basic, Bits and bytes.
16:52:40 <davb> Psychephylax: also this is good for basics:
16:52:40 <davb> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893115232/qid=1008953633/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_71_1/002-5343688-2268013
16:52:41 <chump> A: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893115232/qid=1008953633/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_71_1/002-5343688-2268013 from davb
16:52:49 <davb> A:|How Computer Programming Works
16:52:49 <chump> titled item A
16:52:59 <Psychephylax> I did assembly
16:53:07 <davb> but I suspect it would bore you. You have more fundamentals than you think.
16:54:14 <Psychephylax> i need to program before I can appreciate algorithms
16:54:37 <markd2> using them (like using the java collection classes, or hashes / arrays in perl) is a good thing to do
16:54:48 <markd2> and then implementing them yourself is fun once you know how they work
16:55:20 <davb> Psychephylax: so write a really crappy program, then learn how to make it better. :)
16:56:05 <davb> Here is an idea. Take a program that is open source, and reimplement it without peeking. After you are done, try to compare them to see who did a better job. :)
16:56:24 <markd2> oooh - that's a good iddea
16:56:41 <davb> * davb needs to take his own advice and get his butt in gear instead of goofing around on the web and IRC all the time.
16:57:06 <markd2> heh
16:58:26 <Psychephylax> bbl
17:07:26 <davb> argharghargh!
17:07:36 <davb> my MX records are screwed up.
17:07:47 <davb> not sure why though,,,
17:07:47 <markd2> that sounds ungood
17:08:54 <davb> maybe not... no it is right. but I don't seem to be getting mail...
17:09:03 <davb> just one domain though.
17:10:07 <davb> Maybe I am just crazy today :)
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19:40:25 <davb> http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/12/21/155221.shtml
19:40:26 <chump> B: http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/12/21/155221.shtml from davb
19:40:47 <davb> B:|Lawrence Lessig Interview on Slashdot
19:40:47 <chump> titled item B
19:41:00 <davb> B:| Wow! Read it. And stop complaining and do something!
19:41:01 <chump> titled item B
19:58:01 <davb> B:"But we should not be calling for the repeal of all copyright. We should be calling for a balanced and limited form of copyright - much like the right of our framers - that gives artists the right to earn a living, without giving copyright hoarders the power to veto innovation. "
19:58:01 <chump> commented item B
20:21:56 <bartt> bartt (~chatzilla@dsl-64-34-176-81.telocity.com) has joined #openacs
20:23:01 <bartt> Hello all.
20:23:30 <davb> hi
20:23:47 <bartt> Is there any one that I can ask questions about groups and relations between groups and members?
20:24:45 <davb> Not I. I never explored the group etc... API. hazmat? beattiek?
20:26:29 <bartt> Thanks Dave. I started exploring groups for product categorization in the ecommerce module and I'm running in some limitations.
20:27:48 <davb> Why not use the keywords in the content repository? (i haven't looked at ecommerce at all :)
20:27:49 <hazmat> bartt: whats your question? the ecommerce system is not fully integrated with the openacs4 model last i checked though..
20:28:02 <davb> that would do it.
20:29:50 <bartt> What I would like to achieve is to have unlimited sub-categories. The current ecommerce module uses an old ACS 3.x method that can handle only categories and sub-categories and nothing deeper than that.
20:30:14 <davb> Sounds like you do want the keyword/category system from the content-repository.
20:30:47 <davb> Actually I think you can use it for any acs-object not just CR items...
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20:31:19 <bartt> Does the keyword/category system offer the same component and membership concepts as the group system?
20:31:27 <hazmat> the problem is that the ecommerce module only has the products as acs-objects (and that rather thinly)
20:32:11 <bartt> Hazmat that is something that I could change as I'm now the maintainer of the ecommerce module.
20:32:30 <davb> bartt: no. It is very simple. you can assign any number of keywords. each keyword can have any number of children. AFAIK there is no limits to the number of levels.
20:33:26 <davb> keywords ARE acs_objects.
20:33:37 <davb> so there is probably something that could be done with it.
20:33:46 <bartt> What I would like to express is that products belonging to a sub-category also belong to the category the sub-category belongs to.
20:34:17 <davb> right. this would work, but right now the keyword system only allows cr_items. that seems a little short-sighted now.
20:34:52 <davb> but one little change in the data-model and it could allow acs_objects> I am not sure how that would change things.
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20:35:35 <davb> I suspect it would be very valuable. Now I know why bboard has its own category system, it didn't use the content-repository.
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20:35:57 <davb> I think I will need to write a totally generic service-contracted keyword system.
20:36:48 <davb> bartt: the docs for the CR keyword system are at: doc/acs-content-repository/guide/keywords.html
20:37:01 <davb> in your openacs install.
20:37:10 <bartt> I'll have a look there Dave.
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20:37:17 <davb> Hi Psychephylax
20:37:20 <Psychephylax> booglie wooglie
20:38:08 <davb> Psychephylax: you like oracle...
20:38:51 <Psychephylax> yes I do
20:39:10 <markd2> more than sybase?
20:39:13 <markd2> say it isn't so!
20:39:15 <Psychephylax> a lot more
20:39:19 <davb> I was just thinking, I have this sitewide search driver for intermedia to write.
20:40:01 <Psychephylax> I'm confused
20:41:35 <davb> You were looking to learn something new :)
20:42:56 <Psychephylax> Are you implying I write one?
20:43:02 <Psychephylax> With my incapable hands?
20:43:20 <markd2> it's the best way to learn :-)
20:43:26 <davb> Right!
20:43:48 <bartt> For what it is worth here is the limitation that I found in the groups system: Define a new group type say 'Product Categories' and a new relation ship type 'Product Member' between a product category and a user profile. Then create a few product categories and add members and components to them. Although components and members can succesfully be added, they can not be edited as they are not listed in the admin pages.
20:44:14 <davb> Actually its a big job. First I have to learn intermedia, the old acs-interface and the new acs-service-contract.
20:44:31 <davb> bartt: so it sounds like just a missing UI to admin it, right?
20:44:40 <davb> I think there is alot of that in the groups/users system.
20:44:57 <bartt> No the problem is in the queries that round up the members and components.
20:45:16 <bartt> These queries are real monsters and very hard to read. At least for me.
20:45:42 <davb> I see. Sorry I can't help much.
20:45:57 <davb> So you can add products to the groups?
20:46:42 <bartt> The problem appears to be that the queries expect the members and components to belong to 'membership_rel' and 'component_rel' and cant handle new types of relationships.
20:49:42 <bartt> Yes Dave, I think I would be able to add products to groups if I defined the appropriate relationship,  which the UI can't do. The UI is limited to defining relationship types between groups and persons.
20:50:51 <davb> Ok. so you can create a relationship, but not assign it to anything?
20:52:42 <bartt> In my test case I created new relationship type called 'Product Member' between the new group type 'Product Categories' and users. I was then able to assign users as product members of product categories.
20:54:35 <bartt> The problem is that assigned relationships exist in the DB but do not show up in the UI because the queries can't handle the new relationship type. There are no errors but the (outer) joins don't matchup and the queries do not return the relationships that do exist.
20:56:04 <davb> I wonder if it works in Oracle.
20:58:46 <davb> I was going to say you should submit a bug report, but you are already aware of it :)
20:59:01 <davb> But you could post the query on the bboard and ask for help.
21:02:03 <bartt> You are right. I'm working in PG only but reading the code it wouldn't work in Oracle either. I'll post the issue on the bboard and submit a bug report. Thanks guys!
21:02:29 <davb> np.
21:13:00 <markd2> heh
21:13:13 <markd2> frontpage achiever?
21:15:28 <davb> not sure. the rest of the site is nice though. :)
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21:36:25 <Psychephylax> dave
21:36:31 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax kicks dave in the groin
21:37:35 <davb> ack
21:37:47 <davb> Can't you do something else to get my attention?
21:38:37 <Psychephylax> I can pour cold water over you ;)
21:38:41 <Psychephylax> And your computers
21:38:54 <davb> not bad....
21:39:00 <Psychephylax> :)
21:39:08 <Psychephylax> Can i sned email from tcl
21:39:22 <Psychephylax> Ass-uming it's running on a yewnix box
21:41:30 <davb> sure.
21:41:48 <davb> You probably need an email Tcl package though.
21:42:01 <davb> AOlserver/Tcl or just plain Tcl?
21:43:40 <davb> in aolserver use ns_sendmail
21:44:52 <davb> for regular Tcl
21:44:53 <davb> http://tcl.activestate.com:8002/resource/software/applications/email/
21:44:53 <chump> C: http://tcl.activestate.com:8002/resource/software/applications/email/ from davb
21:44:59 <davb> C:|Tcl Email stuff
21:44:59 <chump> titled item C
21:45:23 <davb> or just use Tcllib, its a package of most of the common things you'd want to do.
21:46:14 <davb> http://tcllib.sourceforge.net/
21:46:14 <chump> D: http://tcllib.sourceforge.net/ from davb
21:46:21 <davb> D:|Standard Tcl libray
21:46:22 <chump> titled item D
21:48:04 <davb> bye!
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23:52:50 <Psychephylax> heh
23:52:53 <Psychephylax> Opera is sexy
23:54:53 <beattiek2> haha
23:54:56 <beattiek2> sure.
23:55:01 <Psychephylax> you don't believe me
23:55:09 <beattiek2> :P
23:55:34 <beattiek2> Psychephylax: was dave around today?
23:56:05 <Psychephylax> yes
23:56:08 <beattiek2> hmm.
23:56:17 <beattiek2> did he say if he would be back?
23:56:48 <beattiek2> i want to ssh to my computer, but i'm in windows and i don't know how... :P
23:56:58 <beattiek2> i guess i can dl a client somewhere.
23:57:20 <Psychephylax> lol
23:57:21 <Psychephylax> here
23:57:38 <Psychephylax> @ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/
23:57:40 <Psychephylax> Putty
23:57:43 <Psychephylax> :)